One of the nice things about blogging is sometimes, people email you or drop by in comments, and say the most enlightening things.
Check out the interesting discussion in this set of comments, on how the category system and upgrades work in cross.
I've raised the issue of guys flat out sandbagging, and guys who have to do something that looks like sandbagging in order to get enough points to be able to race legitimately in the class where they belong. Chris and Darren have a great discussion of it that is enlightening, which also compares the road and mountain category system at the same time.
Thanks gents. That was a good discussion of the issues.
8 comments:
Sandbagging doesn’t really exist in my opinion. Everyone wants to win, as soon as you do, the masses want to kill you.
I take Ethan and Eric as a prime example. Last year the fought for top 10 finishes in the ¾ class. They worked their asses off all year to improve, and this year they are riding dominantly. Isn’t that what we want? To have people progress? Ethan has upgraded to a 2, and Eric is in the process, but these are two guys are examples of how the system is working, not sandbagging.
I’ve been racing cross for 10 years, and this has been by far my best year ever. It’s a process of learning, and frankly working my ass off. I hope come season end, that I have a shot at getting to cat up. It’s a cop out in my opinion to hammer people who have success. Frankly, the guys that are winning are winning because they are out working people. That’s hard to swallow, but it’s the truth.
Perhaps if there was a guy that won all the C races for 2 years in a row, I would feel differently, but that’s not happening. If you look at the long picture, over years, people are moving, people are progressing You can’t look at this short sighted.
I’ll make this comment knowing that I am at a geographic advantage where I live. Different areas in the mid atlantic have different offerings in terms of cross, and level of cross. I think it’s pretty foolish to only race the MABRA series and take that as the gospel of cross racing. I love the mabra, but the racing in other regional series, and of course the MAC is an entirely different game. Basing everything on that region, that series is a mistake. I would be cautious of basing a sandbag claim onb Mabra results alone. Again, living in Northern Delaware I have quick access to NJ, PA and the MABRA series. My advantage.
I have my own opinions on what has happened to the elite master’s class, and how you focus on your grassroots riders, and encourage people to move up. Pulling the women at Fairhill was a great idea from Jim Patton, which we worked to make a reality. The C race needs to be the C race. It is the beginner race. I agree it should be 4 only. I think it’s foolish to have a series, and not allow people to finish it or win it, due to an upgrade. That could happen.
At the end of day, I agree with Chris that the system will work itself out, there is an upgrade structure, I believe the Mabra category and schedule needs a little massaging, but I also believe that Chip and all the mabra promoters do an outstanding job, and they are making an effort to grow the sport. At the end of the day, that’s what is most important.
If you (not specifically you Jim) are only concerned about your results, then you are looking at this the wrong way. I only hope that after you work at this for years, and finally earn some results, that there isn’t a group of people standing behind you crying “sandbagger”. Sadly, I can almost guarantee that will happen.
If you are looking at this from the standpoint of growing the sport, what gets the most folks in, and provides them a real progression path, that can be worked into a 6 start day, then I think you can start to see the big picture.
Sorry so long. I am very passionate about cross. I’ve been in the game a while, and try to hold a long view.
Respect
Fm
C3-Sollay
DCCoD
Marc, great comment, thanks for further proving my point that my commmenters are smarter than I am. Go as long as you need to. Bandwidth is cheap.
Jim
Every year somebody gets hammered for doing well...Wes and Steevo come to mind first. Now, Ethan and Eric. Each of those guys paid their dues and worked their way up.
Upgrades are not forward-looking. They happen because you have success...not because you think you will have future success.
We should support racers that get out there and work hard to improve...and applaud them when they achieve success. And give the chance to let the system work.
This is not 'Nam, this is bowling!
There ARE rules! 8-)
It's not them that I'm thinking about. There are some folks who have gravitated lower than that. Needing upgrade points isn't the issue. I'm asking myself why some guys have gravitated into the Cs and have figured out, upgrading from 4 to 3, where the fields only give points to 6th, could take a long, long time.
Oh, and Chris... What the fuck does this have to do with VietNam?
Well, there isn't a literal connection, Dude.
For men going from 4 to 3 upgrade points go 7 places deep.
Or you can upgrade from 4 to 3 by doing 25 races with a minimum of 10 top 10 finishes.
I reckon an upgrade out of 4 could take a while but the way things are set up right now a 4 has three race options: cat 4, cat 3/4, or masters cat 3/4.
Fuck it, Dude. Let's go bowling.
slightly off topic but why do mabra masters road races generally start at age 30 but cross is 35?
I think I'm basically with Marc on this -- it's tiring to hear anyone who wins a race getting slagged for not preemptively moving themselves up a category and having their ass handed to them all over again.
But for me, a big part of the pain is just hearing the word sandbagger again. When I stopped racing mountain bikes in about 1992, I was more than happy to not have to hear it for quite a number of years, until I entered the road/mountain bike cultural funnel of cyclocross. Pre-1992, I got to hear it thrown around quite a bit as members of our junior crowd poured over results and tried to figure out just how they were being insidiously robbed of their obviously well-deserved palmares (that guy's a 3 on the road - sandbagger, that guy's dad is fast - sandbagger, that guy's going to OTC next year - sandbagger...). What made it all the more comedic was that it was junior racing. If you were under 18, you weren't sandbagging, right? There wasn't any realistic room for argument.
Now, with 'cross, watching adults pour over results and, through the same sort of mental gymnastics, morally move themselves up a couple of virtual slots for weekend warrior ego's sake is a little disheartening. That's why it's good that 'cross has taken a step towards reducing the arguments, even if the distinctions aren't as cut and dried as age. There are categories and an upgrade system --so for reasons Chris has more eloquently stated, it'll take care of itself in time.
It's funny because all the talk of sandbagging is kind of a non-issue to me.
when I brought it up, I was thinking about the other problem that happens in the C race. Too many racers, getting in the way of the faster riders and most people finishing below 30th getting "questionable" results.
Obviously moving up to cat 3 from cat 4 would involve results. moving from cat 4 to cat 3/4 masters just involves getting some years under your belt (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). This is still a non-issue for me because I'm a year or 2 off from being able to jump to 3/4 masters (depending on how they determine racing age).
If I were 35 right now, I would be reluctant to make the jump from the cat 4 race to the 3/4 master's race just because it would be a different level getting my ass kicked.
Last year was my first year of cross and I did it on a singlespeed, some ofthe races I might as well have been doing a time trial because I was so far off the main group. I'm still sucking pretty bad on a geared bike but not having the "singlespeed" excuse has made me realize that I need to train a lot harder.
I guess my idea was if that everyone in the cat 4 race that was over 35 registered in cat 3/4 masters it would increase that field a little bit but shrink the cat 4 (which has been packed to the brim) but there would have to be a mini-exodus of riders doing that otherwise a lot of people would just be signing up for the DFL time trial.
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